Education Today
KUCR Radio, Riverside, Calif.
Interview with Judith Shapiro
Recorded 2/22/05
Announcer: Welcome to Education Today. Our program deals with one of the most important and controversial topics of our time: education, a multibillion-dollar enterprise that touches the lives of ever citizen every day. On this program we'll talk with educators, students and others with a stake in education. We'll discuss the latest trends and issues in the world of education, as well as how the educational landscape is changing. I'm your host, Dan Angelo , and today our guest is Judith Shapiro, President of Barnard College, which is part of Columbia University in New York. Judith, welcome to the program.
Judith Shapiro : Good to be here.
DA : Now, what I'd like to do is, before we engage in our discussion, is ask you to share with our listeners a little bit about Barnard College.
JS : Well, Barnard College was founded in 1889, when Columbia University decided that it did not want to admit women. Barnard is unique in being the only women's college that is still on the one hand, independent, and on the other hand, partnered with a major research university. We are now the most sought-after of the women's colleges in terms of the number of applicants; we receive more applications from women, not only than the other women's colleges, but just about any highly selective coeducational liberal arts college in the country. So we're pleased with our decision to remain an independent women's college.
DA : Well, now, and that's exactly the crux of the issue that I'd like to explore with you today, this role, this unique role, of a women's college in today's society. Let's look a little historically. You say that back in 1889, Barnard came into being as a result of Columbia University not wanting to admit women. What was the historical thread from that point forward, nationally and culturally, with this?
JS : Well, I think one very good thing is that many more doors have been opened to women, so that the institutions that were formerly all male, now have women as students. I think it's important to look at what we really mean, though, when we call an institution coeducational. Does it mean that women are equally likely to be found at all levels of the faculty, the administration, of the board of trustees? Not necessarily so. In many ways, the women's colleges are more coeducational in terms of those in positions of authority. What is very important about the women's college is that they remain places where women are likelier to major in fields that are still predominantly populated by men, and they are also places where women are likelier to exercise a variety of leadership positions.
DA: Now, historically, we saw a number of these single-sex institutions close their doors - as I recall, a lot of them in the seventies.
JS: Yes, that's true. I would say that there are now a total of about 68 - between 68 and 70 - women's colleges. Interestingly enough, there are far fewer men's colleges and I think there has turned out to be less of a market for them. Women's colleges account for a small percentage of all the women who get degrees - undergraduate degrees - in the United States. But their influence is disproportionate to their size, if you look at the proportion of women's college graduates that you would find in Congress or on the board of Fortune 500 companies, or placed high in the corporate world. So I think its good that women can be found everywhere. I think it's also true that women's colleges continue to play a very central role in moving ahead the agenda for women.
DA : Well, why is it you think that the men's only institutions have pretty much faded away - I honestly can't think of any at this point in time, you may know of some - and yet the women's institutions seemed to have survived if not thrived?
JS: Well I think that, given that there's an unfinished agenda in terms of gender equity, in terms of moving women forward in the various professions - I think the women's colleges have work to do that perhaps the men's colleges don't. I think many people feel - the families that are interested in having their daughters attend Barnard - that these colleges are going to give their daughters an edge, so I think quite frankly that there is a different social need for them still, than there is for the men's institutions.
DA: Well, how would you describe that edge? What is the appeal of the women's only college at this point?
JS: Well, you know, often someone will say to me, 'Well, what is it you teach your students?' and I like to respond, 'Well part of it is what we don't teach them,' and that is they are never taught to take second place. They are never taught to limit their aspirations. They are outspoken, they're confident, and when they then graduate out into the world where things are not exactly the same as they are at Barnard, they will not assume that they are the problem. They will decide that the world is the problem, and even while they adapt to it, they will also seek to change it and they won't be their own worst enemies by having a lack of confidence in themselves.
DA: Is that something that you see happening in other coeducational institutions around?
JS: Well, I may not be the best person to tell you. I think what's very interesting is that there are former women's colleges that have become coeducational, and I would say that they probably have a much more balanced relationship between their men and women students by virtue of their history and heritage as women's colleges. Because the point really is to have men and women equally strong in the world in which we live.
DA: What differences would you say your location gives you, what advantages - you're located in probably the major city in the world, at least in my opinion: New York City.
JS: Well, we New Yorkers like to think of it as the major city in the world, and that really is quite important. So Barnard, in addition to being a women's college and a strong liberal arts college that is academically very strong, has a partnership with a research university which is very attractive; so you combine all the advantages of a liberal arts college, where the faculty really pay attention to the students and the student services are very strong, with all the resources - you know, students go back and forth across the street between Barnard and Columbia - and then New York City is of prime importance. Because students have access to all the riches of the city, they can do internships at government offices, major cultural institutions, hospitals, research centers, not only in summer but throughout the year, and many of the students who come to Barnard, like those who come to other NY institutions, really are drawn by the city. I think that's very important.
DA: Do you think that affects the educational experience, being located in the city, as opposed to, say, another women's college, Vassar, which is located in a city but really is a very different kind of city.
JS: Well I think it does influence the educational experience because if you're studying art history, for example, you're a subway ride away from MoMA or the Metropolitan Museum of Art; this has certainly influenced the applicant pool in terms of students really wanting to be in the city, but it also opens many opportunities. Now, not all students want to be in a big city, but for those who do, I think you can't do better than New York. And we do have all kinds of ways in which the city is incorporated into our courses. We have a very strong program in Urban Studies. We have a very strong program in the study of migration, and New York City is a magnet for migrants - for immigrants, from all over the world, and that is something that gives our students fieldwork opportunities. I grew up in Queens, but when I grew up in Queens, it was not filled with populations from all over the globe - Hindu temples, whatever you might imagine, can now be found culturally in Queens.
DA : Now you mentioned earlier that there are 68 to 70 other women's colleges still around - scattered around our nation. Talk to me a little bit about them: how they might be similar to Barnard, and how they might be different.
JS: Well, there are, for example, quite a number of Catholic colleges; that's been a very strong tradition in women's education; I think the other thing that's very interesting is that these women's colleges serve different populations of women. There are some colleges that serve women who are coming back to school - adult students who haven't been in college for a while. There are some women's colleges that provide residence for single mothers with children. Barnard serves traditional-age college students, as do some of our closest sister institutions, but I think what is wonderful about women's institutions is that they can serve women in a variety of different social circumstances.
DA: For example?
JS: Well, as I pointed out, women who may be coming back to college after having been out for a while, or women who have responsibilities for children.
DA: Now you mentioned earlier about an unfinished agenda of the feminist movement, left over from the previous century, if you will. How do you see women's colleges helping to fulfill that agenda?
JS: Well, I think that they certainly help to bring women into fields in which women are still underrepresented. I think they can be counted on to focus on women's needs and women's interests in a way that no other institution can. I also think that, at this time, women's colleges in the United States should be thinking about the international issues in women's education, because as we look at other places in the world, there's a clear correlation between development, and how well and rapidly a country develops, and the state of women in that society. I am happy to see that the women's colleges are interested in being in contact with, and being supportive of, women's colleges in other places and in other parts of the world.
DA: Now we talked earlier about some of the Catholic institutions. Now besides the fact that they're serving the women's population, how would they - how would the curriculum be - how might it be different there as opposed to a place like Barnard, which is clearly secular?
JS: Well, that's interesting because in my experience it really isn't - the curriculum is really not that different, because even though many of these institutions may be affiliated with the Church, or have a history of affiliation with the Church, most of them are really liberal arts colleges and they are not the places where people are getting into trouble teaching about evolution, and where there's any kind of pressure to teach Creation Science. So I don't want to give the impression that these Catholic-sponsored institutions are sectarian in any intellectually narrow way.
DA: If you just happened to join us, you're listening to Education Today, my name is Dan Angelo and my guest is Judith Shapiro, the president of Barnard College in Columbia - I'm sorry, part of Columbia University in New York. Judith, you were talking earlier about the difference between a coeducational institution - the experience that women would have at a coeducational institution - and that at an all women's college. And you mentioned, one of the things, that there is a disproportionately higher number of women coming out in positions of influence, power, and authority, coming out of the women's colleges. What tools, or what set of circumstances, might they be receiving at that all-women's college that the coeducational institutions don't seem to be delivering?
JS: Well, it could be a number of things, but let's take, you know, people of traditional college age, since we talked about the fact that some women's colleges serve older or returning students. But let's take the traditional college-age students. They are often at a time in their life when all kinds of gender stereotypes and expectations are coming to bear on them very heavily, like, 'what are women supposed to be like, what are men supposed to be like,' and women's colleges are, in a way, liberated zones from that sort of pressure, so that women - although in a place like Barnard in close partnership with Columbia, it's not as if they're living on an island or in a cloister - but they're in a community where they really don't have to face a lot of gender stereotypes in terms of what is expected of them. So I think that's the first thing that's very important, and then the fact that, you know, just about every leadership position is open to them. I should say, moreover, that in the Barnard-Columbia relationship, Barnard women often end up taking leadership positions in larger Columbia University activities as well: the current Editor-In-Chief of the Columbia Spectator, which is the major undergraduate student newspaper at Columbia, is a Barnard woman. So we're quite pleased about that.
DA: Just as an item of curiosity: you were talking about positions of leadership at educational institutions, of those 68-70 women's colleges across the country. To your knowledge, how many of them are dominated by men, in terms of -
JS: Well, this is very interesting, I'm trying to think of - offhand, I'm thinking of two - there were three, but he's moved on somewhere else - two men, who are presidents of women's colleges, and they're just great, and they're really good about being in meetings or in situations where they're simply surrounded by women, and their peers. Because those of us who really want to advance the interests of women are not all women, are men as well, whether they're people who serve on the Boards of Trustees of women's colleges, or on the faculty, so the project of advancing the interests of women is a project for women and men.
DA: Do you see that as - I don't want to spend too much time on this question, but it does fascinate me - so you see that as putting them at a disadvantage in that institution?
JS: I don't think so. I think quite frankly, I mean, insofar as the president of a college should serve as an incarnation of that college's values and identity, then it is harder for a man to be president of a women's college. But I think it's a good thing and a likely thing that most presidents of women's colleges will be women. But there are men who are so concerned about the advancing of women that they can be highly effective and very very much-appreciated presidents of their institutions.
DA : It's somewhat like a college like Gallaudet concerning deaf students, having a hearing president, it's -
JS: It's a challenge, it's a challenge that can be overcome. But I certainly see what you're saying.
DA : Well it plunges us into deep philosophical waters as to, you know, perceptions and who - whose responsibility it is to deal with those perceptions, and so on and so forth. Going back to women's issues, you talked about the importance of the women's issues internationally. How would you see women's colleges in the United States addressing those issues?
JS: Well, one thing we can do is, certainly, come together, as a group of women's colleges have recently with our colleagues from other countries, and these other countries vary from, you know, well established women's colleges in places like England to very newly forming colleges for women in places like Africa or Southeast Asia or other areas of the world. And I think it's important to realize that many of these countries have traditions they can build on, in terms of women's roles and what women can do, and they shouldn't think that the only modern thing to do is be coeducational. So any woman's institution can be conservative, or it can be progressive and on the forefront of change. And I think it's very important for us in the United States, first of all, to learn from other countries, because, you know, we're not always on the forefront of advancing the position of women. You know, the participation of women in national legislatures I think the United States ranks something like 68 th , or 63 or whatever, along with countries like Andorra. I mean, countries all around the world are much ahead of us in terms of women's representations in government. So we have something to learn from other countries, but in the field of higher education, we also have something to share, to help with.
DA: Let's bring our focus a little bit closer to home. Inside the walls, if you will, of Barnard College. What are your challenges, in terms of hiring, of faculty selection - do you put a priority on hiring women, or is it the best candidate for the job - how is that sensitive issue addressed internally?
JS: Well, I think for us there has never been any contradiction between hiring a woman and hiring the best person for the job, because our pool of faculty, who we're considering, really includes very highly qualified men and women faculty. I think, in terms of competition and the difficulties in hiring, as we experience it, the problem is: how do you live on a professorial salary in NYC whether you are a man or a woman?
DA: Touché!
JS: We deal with issues of how can we help faculty with housing and that sort of thing, but it is true that in fields where there are far fewer women than men, the most academically selective institutions are also chasing after the same small pool of applicants. I think that's had more of an impact on diversifying the faculty, you know, in terms of our racial and ethnic groups in the United States, than it has on hiring women.
DA : Now in terms of your students, there's a self-sorting that takes place; you know, a single-sex institution does not have universal appeal to all girls. Do you find that in hiring your employees that there's that same kind of self-sorting that takes place?
JS: I do think in the same way, and quite frankly, for women's colleges, even if you look at students' applications for women's colleges that are very strong academically, it's not necessarily the fact that the women's college is a women's college that brings the students in as applicants. They look at the academic quality, they look at the location - in our case, New York - they look at the fact that they can combine a lib arts college with a research university across the street. And it's as they go through their years at the college that they really come to appreciate the fact that it's a women's college. If you look at the faculty: again, the fact that it's an academically distinguished institution, that there is not only the liberal arts college but the partnership with the university, that there is NYC, it's really quite the same for the faculty. But they also come to have a very strong identification with the mission of the institution to women, whether they are men or women. So I think it works the same way for the faculty as for the students.
DA: Now, being at the very beginning of the 21 st century - we were talking about the role of women's colleges in the 21 st century - we should be taking a futuristic look at this. What do you see down the road ten, twenty, or even a hundred years, for single sex institutions in our society?
JS: Well, you know, anthropologists, of whom and which I am one, tend to take a very long view, certainly into the past and also into the future, and my feeling is that the project of gender equity and of how we balance the positions of women and men in society is steady work. Whether you look at it cross-culturally, or whether you look at it through history, gender differences have played a fairly central role in how human beings arrange their society. So my own sense is that the work of a women's college is never done. I don't find that discouraging, because I think the work of life is never done, and so I don't see the need for women's colleges evaporating anytime soon. At the same time, I think that the increased opportunities for women to be in all kinds of other places is a very good thing. I think women's colleges will, as far as I can see into the future, will have an important role to play in advancing the interests of women.
DA: Now I want to combine that forward perspective with a little bit of retrospective. The experience that many colleges had - many single-sex institutions - had, in the seventies was not that their mission had been accomplished and therefore they were irrelevant. It was more that society had more taken sort of a different take on the role of the single-sex institution and they were perceived as being irrelevant. How do you see that playing out, again, in the future?
JS: Well, again I can't say that far into the future, but certainly it's not the case now. Because, as we know, history doesn't just move in one direction, and there may have been a time when there was a question about, 'well, do we still need women's colleges?' but that time is certainly not now, because I find that whether it's the parents or the young women I talk to, they really have a strong sense of the positive place that these institutions have to play in society. And so there may be changes in fashion back and forth, but as I look to the future, again, I see that there will be a continued understanding of, and demand for, these institutions.
DA: And, not to beat the horse totally to death, but as an anthropologist and as a college president, what kind of societal trends and issues are you keeping aware of, keeping abreast of, that you, as a college president, want to make sure that your institution takes into account so that you do remain relevant?
JS: Well, I think that a very important and very complicated issue has to do with the way in which we are going to combine our working lives and our family lives in our society. And I think that is a burden, or I should say a challenge - because, you know, we college presidents never want to call anything a problem or a difficulty, we always like to call it a challenge, that is the euphemism we really savor - the way in which certain kinds of work and careers are so demanding that it makes it so difficult to combine that with family life, falls more heavily on women than it does on men. And how we can help our students understand that, and how that's likely to change, so that the burden comes to be shared more equally by men and women. Or, men and women will be equally likely to make the same kinds of balancing decisions. Or whether we will understand, in our society, that some of the demands we place for productivity, and the hours that have to go into the working day and the working week, really don't connect with productivity and maybe can be changed. And on the other hand, the fact that there are some careers that really may involve sacrifices of family life. I think those are issues that we in women's colleges be making our students aware of, and try to be as intelligent as we can about it.
DA: Now we're down to the last minute. On a day-to-day basis, what can a place like Barnard do to bring about those kinds of societal changes?
JS : Well, first of all, I think of what we prepare our students to do, we want our students to be both prepared to deal with the world as they find it, and be savvy about it and realistic about it, but also to be prepared to go out and do whatever is necessary to try and change that world. And so whether it's the, you know, how certain aspects of our society find their way into the curriculum, in sociology and economics, anthropology and urban studies, whatever, how our co curricular programming around the Career Development office, or any of the other programs we run, how we bring our alumnae in a variety of fields back to the college to speak with our students so that they have a sense of what awaits them out there, and also provides them with a network that will help them thrive when they graduate: all of these are things we seek to do for our students.
DA: Outstanding. Well, I'm sorry to say that we're just about out of time; our guest today has been Judith Shapiro, president of Barnard College in New York. Judith, thank you for being our guest on Education Today.
JS: Happy to join you.
DA: Education Today is a project of Webtime Productions in cooperation with the University of California, and is broadcast on KUCR-FM 88.3 Riverside with Engineering assistance from Walter Douglas. Education Today is also heard on Inland Public Radio, KVCR 91.9 FM. Opinions expressed on this show belong solely to those who express them. For more information about our show, or to contact us, visit our website at edtodayradio.net. This is your host, Dan Angelo, thanks for listening and be sure to be with us next week at this same time for more Education Today.
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