BROADCAST TRANSCRIPT OF VOICE OF AMERICA, Talk to America
March 8, 2004, International Women's Day, Special Broadcast on Women's Achievement with President Judith Shapiro of Barnard College
Sarah Williams : Hello, I'm Sarah Williams. Today is International Women's Day, a time to celebrate the economic, political, and social achievements of women. Today on Talk to America our panel will focus on labor and migrant women and we'll take your phone calls. You can reach us by dialing now 202-619-3111, or you can email us at talk@voanews.com . Dave DeForest is up next with complete world news, and later in our program we'll talk with Judith Shapiro , the president of Barnard College, a liberal arts college in New York City. It's all ahead. First, the news.
Sarah Williams : Barnard College in New York City is an independent college of liberal arts and sciences for women affiliated with Columbia University. Barnard has a long tradition of graduating leaders in the arts, business, government, and science. Talk to America 's Rick Pantellao spoke earlier with Dr. Judith R. Shapiro, President of Barnard College, about the role of women's colleges today.
Rick Pantellao : President Shapiro, Barnard College is an independent college of liberal arts and sciences for women. After the push to turn schools that had been single gender towards coeducational facilities, what role do schools like Barnard, that cater specifically to women, play in today's society?
Judith Shapiro : Well, women's colleges have a very strong track record that they still maintain even after, you know, many more doors have been opened to women in formerly all male institutions, which, by the way, I think is a very good thing. Women's colleges tend to have higher proportions of women majoring in fields in which men traditionally predominate, like the sciences and math. They continue to be over-represented in positions of leadership--that is, graduates of women's colleges--so while I would say, and I would hate to think that women's colleges are the only hope for women's advancement, they certainly still play, I think, a very vital role in fostering women leaders and in moving the whole agenda of gender equity forward.
Rick Pantellao : You see that there is a greater need today to separate the sexes in education. As a matter of fact, you wrote that if women at Duke University feel that they must hide their intelligence to succeed with men, then true coeducation remains an unrealized goal despite the historic struggle that allowed women to gain admission to former men's institutions.
Judith Shapiro : Yes, I think what's very interesting is that the President of Duke, who initiated this project of assessing the situation of women in the University, was formerly President of Wellesley, a distinguished sister women's institution of Barnard's. Again, I think coeducation is something that has to be seen as a worthy goal rather than something that institutions that simply call themselves coeducational have actually achieved. So, for example, you have to look at are they, in other words, are they sort of male dominated institutions that accept women as students? So you want to look at the Board of Trustees--is it just as likely for women as men to be on that board? The faculty, what's the proportion of successful women and men on the faculty? And then, you have to look at what is the experience that women and men are having in the institution. So, I certainly want to remain optimistic about the prospect for true coeducation, but it may be strategic in certain situations, and I think that's what Duke is finding, to maybe develop some special programs for women that replicate the advantages of women's colleges.
Rick Pantellao : Dr. Shapiro, along with college higher education institutions, there has been this kind of talk among schools such as elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, that girls tend to not benefit as much from the current system of coeducation and that there is a move to put girls, for example, in separate classes from the boys in sciences and math, because there are indications that girls, especially at the middle school age, feel a bit intimidated in being in these classes with the boys.
Judith Shapiro : Well, I think that is something that I would like to see as a choice available to families, because there is some evidence--I mean, when you think about it, it's at an age where gender stereotypes and expectations about how boys are supposed to be and how girls are supposed to be, when those things, those pressures, really come to the fore, that that can be a time when girls become vulnerable to these stereotypes. I mean, there's a lot of research that shows that girls who are very confident when they're younger suddenly become less confident when they enter adolescence. I certainly wouldn't want to say that all girls, you know, have to follow the same path, but I think it is a very useful alternative to have, and I'd like to see a way to have it in the public schools, as well as, of course, it already exists in the private schooling.
Rick Pantellao : Dr. Shapiro, do you still see disparities in education opportunities between women and men?
Judith Shapiro : It's a complicated matter, because you find, for example, take an engineering school--the one here at Columbia does really quite well to have just about, I think, a third of its students as women, maybe even more by now, which is a lot for an engineering school. If you look in the different sub-fields, you'll see some that have really almost no women in them, or few as opposed to others where women seem to concentrate, and I think when you look at the whole thing, one question to ask is, are there fields where it's a lot easier to combine family and work than other fields? And that can be hard for men too, but most of the burdens, I mean, overwhelmingly, all the research shows that most of the burdens on trying to have an intense work life and an intense family life fall on women, and mind you that most of the women who do this double shift are doing it because they're supporting their families, so I'm not even talking about the more privileged level of women who want to have, you know, careers, but those that simply have to earn a living, often at very low salaries. So I think the whole work/family thing is a major issue of inequality for women.
Rick Pantellao : The superwoman. The woman who took care of most of the previously traditional home care tasks, took care of the children, and they also took care to have a professional career, in other words, pushing along the axiom that they can have it all.
Judith Shapiro : Well, this is interesting, because Lily Tomlin, the comedian, had a show called The Search for Intelligent Life in the Universe , at one point she's playing--she plays many characters--she's playing one of these high-powered career women who's at her gym, I think, working out, and she says, "If I knew what it was going to be like to have it all I would have settled for less," and our board chair, Anna Quindlen, who is a very distinguished writer, chair of Barnard's Board of Trustees, once pointed out that women have earned the right to do as much as men, but they have not earned the right to do as little. So, I think you really have a point there.
Rick Pantellao : We've all heard about the term "the glass ceiling," and women, you know, are continuing to make slow but steady progress in the executive suites and boardrooms. Do you see this continuing?
Judith Shapiro : Well, I think, first of all, because of the other points about work and family, women are encountering different pressures into a job that really does demand everything from you, because some of the highest positions in any organization are very greedy jobs, if you want to put it that way, that take just about all you have to offer. I think the other thing, though, is that there's a problem when you don't have a critical mass of women, because then one will get into a leadership position, and if she isn't a brilliant success, people will tend to have that reflect on women generally. For example, if a man who is head of the state, or governor, or CEO of a company, really screws up, people are not likely to say, "Well, I guess we'd better not choose a man next time," and that still, you know, will affect women. I really think that the issue is getting a critical mass into the pipeline all the way so that they're not rarities when they get to the very top.
Rick Pantellao : Judith R. Shapiro is President of Barnard College in New York City. President Shapiro, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us.
Judith Shapiro : And thank you.
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